Vernon,
They have requested an easement to parallel the existing kinder morgan line.
I did hear today (and read some on the internet) that Energy Transfer Pardners and Regency Energy Partners (also owned by ETP) are planning for a 533 mile 24/30" pipeline (called Lone Star Express) to bring NGLâs from the Permian Basin to Mont Belvieu. I read it would basically follow their current Lone Star West Texas pipeline which comes though Trinity and Houston counties. However no ROWâs have been purchased. They have begun surveying on the south end.
Our property is 3-4 miles N.E. of Weldon. Enbridge has made an offer and a counter offer, that were both turned down. We have asked for proof of eminent domain rights, which they have not produced yet.
Vernon,
Lone Star called and is surveying our tract next to where Enbridge proposes to go. They are looking for a 50 ft permenent easement with a 30" pipe along with a 50 ft temporary construction easement.
Some of the pipeline companyâs are just like some of the oil companies. They think that whatâs yours, is theirs! Fact! There is a seismic company trying to get landowners to agree $15/acre to do seismic. Several of the pipeline companies are try to get these lines that start and end in the State of Texas designated as an interstate line. They will probably get away with it too. Landowners have a lot more rights than most of them think. Timber companies get between $12,000 to $15,000 per acre for the acreage that is within the permanent easement. The people permitting the pipelines are not employeeâs in most cases. They are just like landmen who work for brokers, who are hired by the companies. They are just middle men. Condemnation is not always in the companies favor.
That would be it I assume. They plan to put a 24" line from the Permian Basin to Bosque County then a 30" line from Bosque County to Mont Belvieu. Did you get contacted recently by Enbridge as well? One of their existing lines goes through my place but the other one goes around us. I have not been contacted by either.
There are 3 or more large pipelines being permitted in Houston Co. A company named Lone Star is building a $90 million dollar facility about 4 miles west of Crockett south of Hwy 7 west. There are already 3 separate pipelines that merge in this area. 3 more are being surveyed and permitted. The Enbridge line mentioned I was not aware of. These permit agents are very reluctant to reveal information. These companyâs are trying to get permits to survey âfreeâ. They donât want to pay for the surveying period. People that own land need to be very careful. I suggest that you view Buddy Cottonâs website and post on leasing, permitting and entrance to your properties.
Being a land surveyor in the oil & gas industry, I can tell you that it is my experience that companies do not pay landowners for surveying permission. Also, it is always in your best interest to sign AHEAD of condemnation. If it goes to court, the only thing under discussion is the right to condemnâŚnot the price for the easement. Contrary to some viewpoints, pipeline companies are not a bottomless supply of money that they will dole out if youâre tough enough. When landowners get too stupid, the landmen move toward condemnation or re-route (if they have no eminent domain rights). The best option is to do your homework, be professional, and communicate that you are reasonable & willing to negotiate.
Full Disclosure
I donât like landmen, lawyers, or car dealers.
Also, Judon Fambrough at Texas A&M Real Estate Dept. has given classes in Crockett in the past. I think he has some materials on his website for the publicâs use. That is an excellent resource for landowners to access.
Why should a pipeline company have the right to survey without paying a fee for it? Most people would like to make a profit out of their land and have control of it. Landowners have to pay property tax on the pipeline easement. A lot of landowners feel that their property is just like their home and the land it is own. I personally donât care about the pipelines budget.
East Texan, thanks for your input on the ROW process. Iâm curious to know more about it. Who determines whether a company has condemnation or eminent domain rights? What does the jury decide in the case if not the $ amount? Does the judge decide the amount? Is the highest offer that was made by the company the amount that ends up being paid after a condemnation suit, or could it end up being a lower amount (excluding legal costs/attorney fees)? Thank you again for your input.
@JR:
I am a land surveyor, but I will tell you what I know in dealing with the various landmen and right-of-way departments within the industry. A company must be a âcommon carrierâ to have condemnation rights (basicallyâŚitâs the companies that are too big to fight). I HAVE BEEN TOLD by some very seasoned individuals that it is pretty standard for the price paid after condemnation to be set by precedent of âlike kindâ (not the best offer). The judge will assemble a panel of special commissioners who will hear the condemnation suit. If the Iâs are dotted and the Tâs are crossed (and they âalmost alwaysâ are)âŚitâs a pretty standard deal. The big companies donât get rail-roaded by some hometown good olâ boys. They do this on a regular basis and have their legal team âin-houseâ. The only other person who will win in a big fight will be your attorneyâŚheâll charge you by the hour and be TICKLED to keep sending out letters on your behalf. Iâm not saying itâs right, but when the big company decides they are coming across your propertyâŚTHEY ARE! Sad but true, when you own the surface rights to property in America, you really just own the right to pay tax on it.
Again, I always think itâs in the landowners best interest to NOT go to condemnation. Be educated, firm, and reasonable and they will work with you. If you seem like some crazed redneck intent on living like Jed Clampett after they cross your propertyâŚtheyâll just condemn and let their attorneys and the sheriff deal with you. The folks that are reasonable can get a good price and maybe some extras like a crushed-rock driveway and some new fencing out of the deal. Iâve actually seen the companies do some pretty fair things when they had a good relationship with the landowner, because they like to keep it that way.
Hope this helps.
From past experience for the past 45 plus yearâs of dealing with oil and gas leases The lease âbrokersâ that work for the companies are the ones that usually hire âlandmenâ to acquire the leases. Lease brokers and their landmen donât want mineral and land ownerâs to deal directly with the company. Most of the companies âin houseâ landmen donât want to deal with the mineral and land owners. Landmen donât always tell the truth to the companies and to the owners of the minerals and surface, everyone knows that. People are going to talk with others and neighbors no matter what. I think that the surface owners should be paid. What needs to be done is to have articles put in local papers so that will enable owners to benefit from shared knowledge. Thatâs what this website is for!
Condemnation is not the âpreferredâ method. This is where many landowners mess-up: they think that the pipeline company will pay ANYTHING to avoid condemnation. If someone is totally unreasonable, they will file a restraining order on them (sad, but true in America) and the property will be surveyed while the sheriff is on-site to keep the peace.
Mentioning what timber companies get paid does not correlate. EVERY project is different. $300/rod ($15,000/acre) is NOT uncommon, but some projects do not have the budget for that. Also, when the pipeline crosses 5 contiguous miles of timber company land they are going to be paid a higher premium to sell the right-of-way than Larry Landowner who has 5 acres and 300â. Many times Mr. Landowner thinks he can hold-up the project or get HUGE money for his 300â. Itâs just not true. The pipeline company will move toward condemnation, Larry will probably get less than his last offer, and he might spend a night in jail if he pulls a gun on workers to âdefend his propertyâ. Iâm not saying any of this is right, itâs just the way it works out in the industry.
When a property is condemned the process involves the court receiving the funds offered by the taking entity into escrow until a trial resolves the value. There is no discussion about the right to condemn, its already done. The only question the court decides is price. Iâll take my chances with a jury of Houston County voters.
I was just trying to tell you how it usually works. I am also a landowner with mineral rights. Itâs hard to see people take advice from their Uncle Bubba when it comes to the pipeline process. Folks will turn down $6,000, hire a lawyer, pay $4,500 in legal fees, and get $7,000.
You will not find a company that will pay for the right to surveyâŚnormally. If the pipeline company determines it needs access, they will file a restraining order against you. Again, Iâm not saying itâs ârightââŚbut itâs what they will do.
And juries do NOT determine the price paid to landowners in a condemnation hearing. And the companyâs lawyers are MUCH more experienced in the process than yours will be!
East Texan, I am not a lawyer, but have been involved in numerous condemnation proceedings as I am a R.E. Investor. Most of these cases get settled just prior to the taking. Those that go to court, are resolved by juries weighing the competing values and awarding an amount that they think the property is worth. Thats a fact, not some false info.
Companies HATE it when landowners talk with their neighbors. Thatâs a good way to find out the âgoing rateâ, but it can also backfire on you. âI have been toldâ that the reason they will not pay for surveying permission (not seismicâŚbut civil,environmental, and archeological) is because they donât want to establish the pattern of paying âsomeâ, because then âallâ will want to be paid. Likewise, if they are wanting to use an access road on your property (or other âextrasâ) you may be able to get MORE money out of them if they know youâre not going to tell the whole neighborhood about your new rock driveway or the new gate they installed for you. There really is a limit to where they will stop being nice and start being legal. The latter will always work LESS in your favor than the former.
I agree with Mineral Owner, this website is AWESOME for that! Just remember that there is a big difference in signing a mineral lease and selling an easement. Different set of landmen. In the pipeline industry the landmen are subcontracted just like the surveyors and inspectors. They are working directly with the pipeline company whereas in a mineral lease they may be working independent with the hopes of selling their lease to a producer.
One last thought: Evidently it is not legal for landmen to threaten or even mention âcondemnationâ. They can answer your questions about it, but they cannot bring it up. When you get a Final Offer LetterâŚtheyâre not bluffing. Maybe some people will go to condemnation and come out smelling like a rose, but I have seen it work better for more that settled ahead of a hearing and before spending thousands on attorneys fees. Always remember that legal fees are NEVER awarded regardless of the results of a hearing.