In 2008 my mother and son passed away the very same day. Dealing with my Sons death moreso, I was cheated by my greedy brother in my mothers probate. I was not given any information of the assets my mother had, but found a paper with mineral rights information so my brother had to add this asset in the probate and I did inherit some mineral rights, but I know more than everything that my mother owned way more mineral rights in Osage and Pawnee county, but havent been able to find them. I did go to the court clerks office and wasnt helped at all, but was told I would have to go through all the journals and find my mothers name in order to find more of her mineral rights. Im a resident of Oklahoma City, and am disabled after a bad hip replacement at this time. I can not afford a landman at 100 dollars an hour to search for me, and would appreciate it, if someone would instruct me of another method of finding my mothers mineral rights.
Your question is similar to one yesterday. It is true that clerks in the Office of County Clerk won't do a full mineral search for anyone and everyone who walks through the door. That's not their job, and not what they are trained in. There is no easy fix for what you are wanting. In general, you get what you pay for. Maybe a landman working in those two counties will sympathize with you, contact you, and do it pro bono. If they are able to do that for you, they have more free time than I do. Thanks for telling me what landmen make. I may have to ask for a raise. Best of luck, and I hope you find the resolution you are looking for.
They have grantor/grantee books that list recorded documents by name so it is a pretty simple search. It is booked by years and listed by name and that is what you need to go back to search. You may want to search your grandparents and other relatives names also. There has been a fair amount of leasing in those counties so search now and in the future in the MOEA with the Oklahoma Corporation Commission.
The devil is in the details. It's a little more complicated than pulling and reading all of the "T" indexes. Once you locate the documents, you will also have to analyze and interpret them. There are royalty deeds, mineral deeds, non-participating mineral deeds, term mineral deeds, life estates in certain states, testamentary trusts created in wills, intestacy issues, possible Duhig Rule issues, et al. It's unlikely that a total novice who has never done a full mineral title search would gather and correctly interpret all of the applicable instruments on their first attempt. Second attempt? Third attempt?...
But it would probably beat nothing and there are more than a few chains of title out there where minerals were just passed down generation after generation after they were obtained. You don't know what you have until you look, and obtain copies of everything.
Dave Quincy said:
The devil is in the details. It's a little more complicated than pulling and reading all of the "T" indexes. Once you locate the documents, you will also have to analyze and interpret them. There are royalty deeds, mineral deeds, non-participating mineral deeds, term mineral deeds, life estates in certain states, testamentary trusts created in wills, intestacy issues, possible Duhig Rule issues, et al. It's unlikely that a total novice who has never done a full mineral title search would gather and correctly interpret all of the applicable instruments on their first attempt. Second attempt? Third attempt?...
It's probably a moot point. She said that she was infirm. Doesn't sound like she's in any position to do much in the way of research, accuracy notwithstanding. There are also more than a few chains of title out there where mineral estate is very, very splintered. An experienced hand can tell relatively fast if that is the case, or not.
Jacqueline,
Life is not so difficult that one should just give up like everything is just too impossible. I for one believe anyone can do anything if you want to. It seems like not all carry such beliefs. Honestly, if someone tells you running title is difficult in Oklahoma they are not being straight up with you as in most cases it's as easy as a walk in the park. Lack of desire or will is the only reason one can not achieve their goal. I have also seen many title attorney's and seasoned landmen make mistakes, major mistakes. One could help her out and run title for her for free or contribute funds to pay someone else rather than discourage her. For what she is wanting it very simple to search and pull records. Mostly it only takes common sense which I will admit not all have.
Hey. That sounds like a great idea! Why don't you do that for her, or get her address and mail her the funds.
Glad I skipped lunch so I can reply. Agreed. Even lawyers and experienced landmen make mistakes, but not as many as a total novice who has never done a full mineral title search would make.
It goes way beyond grabbing some indexes and running T for Thompson, assuming you can take that walk in the park.
Now, back to work.
If the county doesn't have wheelchair access, the county could get sued like anyone else, not that I am suggesting she do so, but they may need to accomodate her under the ADA. Public records should be within reach of all.
Dave Quincy said:
It's probably a moot point. She said that she was infirm. Doesn't sound like she's in any position to do much in the way of research, accuracy notwithstanding. There are also more than a few chains of title out there where mineral estate is very, very splintered. An experienced hand can tell relatively fast if that is the case, or not.
Wow! Sounds like you want to put her out. Hopefully, all of the records affecting her mom's minerals will be in the lower racks.
I can think of several counties not online and where landmen can barely squeeze into their small work spaces, much less a motorized or non-motorized chair. However, I can recall one time where another record checker was in a motorized vehicle. There wasn't really room for it, and he ran over my foot once without even realizing that he done so. It didn't feel good, but I just sucked it up. I sympathized.
Getting your toes run over does make for a bad situation. I had a motorized portable x-ray machine run over my toes once in a hospital I was working in. Broke a toe too. I just sucked it up too. It was painful but forgotten in three weeks and I was so busy it was low on my list of complaints.
Sometimes it takes teamwork, maybe Jacqueline can bring someone to fetch and carry?
First one thinks no layperson can run title like only a few who are Born into some high and mighty position of being "A LANDMAN" can do it, it's not rocket science and anyone with an IQ above 90 can probably handle it. It normally only takes common sense to understand title and what one doesn't understand can readily and easily be interpreted. I also agree with r w in that it is possible and pretty simple to take a friend to get books down if she needs someone to. Life is really not so difficult as some want others to believe.
If it was that easy, why did you write that you saw "seasoned landmen and attorneys making major mistakes"? Are you alleging that they all have IQs below 90? If you are near her counties, and it is that quick and simple, why don't you go do it for her? I've seen some tracts that require an IQ of 180 to even get close. Mainly because of the way the minerals were traded over the years - the ambiguous and unclear language used in the instruments. Albert Einstein would not have been able to get the title to "1.0".
No one is born into it, but it can take years to become a good, accurate title person.
A big problem is that the courthouse where the land is located doesn't always give you all the answers you need.
Quite often you have to do the curative before you can tie it all together. Heirship Affidavits, certified copies of probates. Yep, it's a sad fact. People die on you.
I said she could run title and that almost anyone could that have the desire to, you discouraged and thought maybe you should offer since believing it is so impossible a task except for you. Many people for hire try to give a misconception that no one else can do what they do. There will always be a few things in life that are not black and white, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to tell when something is truly gray, which is few and far between. I am sorry you don't understand the meaning of what you read as I only stated even some professionals at times don't do any better job of understanding title than a layman. If it helps I can draw you a picture as I certainly didn't say any attorneys have IQs of less than 90.
I really just want to end this with the truth, and that truth is that most all people can do anything they so desire to. I feel sorry for anyone who believes otherwise or tries to convince others of otherwise.
You keep throwing things against the wall, and hoping something will stick. Make up your mind. Is running title a walk in the park, or does it have a level of difficulty where even lawyers can make "major mistakes"? It takes seven years of higher education before you can even take the test to become one, so they probably do have IQs above 90.
The statement that someone who has never run a mineral title before, could do an equal job as someone who does that for a living, is absurd, and not even worth responding to. It is true that not everyone is cut out for this type of work. Not everyone has the detail orientation it takes to do it.
Have you mailed Jacqueline the money yet to hire a professional? Have you contacted her to get the information regarding her mother's estate, so that you can assist her with the title? If not, why not? Stop arguing with me, and making ridiculous comparisons between laymen and real landmen, and help the lady. I already said that time and distance don't allow me to do so.
I really just want to end this with the truth. There is no substitute for experience in this line of work. Anyone who believes that a layman's title search will have the same degree of integrity as an experienced landman's is delusional. How do I know? I can still recall being as lost as a goose the first time I ever walked into a vault in the Office of County Clerk many years ago. Comparing my abilities then with what I can do now, well, it's more a matter of light years, than decades.
Sorry Mineral Joe for not giving you the last word. No one told me that you were born "High and Mighty", and the only one allowed to espouse truths, or make that falsehoods, and total misrepresentations of the facts.
And yes, I do sympathize with you.
Just to clarify things. Let me draw you a picture. You can't have it both ways. Either the work is a walk in the park, or you never saw "seasoned landmen and attorneys making major mistakes". Elaborate. What "major mistakes" did you witness them making? That may give me a better understanding of where you are coming from.
If it were that easy, why would someone with seven years of higher education make any mistakes doing it? A high school drop-out on crack cocaine could still get it right, right? Just "a walk in the park".
I am a landman and certainly do not make $100 an hour. Not in Texas anyway. If you will give me a call, I will try to help you if I can. There is alot of information online if you know where to look. Also, it does depend on the County. Some counties have never been added to the online system. My number is 903-736-1745, M Klingman.