Opinions on offer

I was contacted recently about purchasing my mineral interest in Payne county, Section 24-19N-01E. My interest is in the SE/4 of this section and the entire E/2 of this section as well as the section just north of it have been HBP for ~40 years with an old gas unit on it. I was receiving $7-10/yr(!) for many years and then the checks stopped, probably for not updating my address after a move, but I recently found out they are still paying that magnificent sum to another family member.

A new well is evidently going in on the W/2 of that section so I assume that is what piqued the interest of the landman/investor who is making the offer. I guess my interest would be participating in that well but I assume at the current lease rate on the gas unit which is 2%. My calculations were that I could possibly receive $50-100/mo (for 2.5 acres) if it were a really good well. The offer was for $2300/acre. Any ideas why anyone would pay this under these conditions? I'm thinking I must be missing something here but don't have a clue what it might be. My entire family interest is for 50 acres and they are looking to me for advice. What do you think?

Glen,

Please tell us what state your MR's are in. It would be a help to someone trying to help you.

Have a great day

Wes Luke

Sorry...Payne county, OK. Thought I was posting in that group. Maybe I should move it over if I can figure out how to do that.

Just my 2cents...

wouldn't sell minerals as they don't cost anything to have... if you have a land man sniffing around at 2300 a acre you can bet there probably is or will be some activity soon... they not in buisness to loose money and looking at short term fliPs from my experience. .. well I wish you luck... and like I said it's just my 2cents

Given that it is Oklahoma I would hold onto those and wait for better development.

Glen, you might want to check the Oklahoma Lost Money site to see if your money has been held in suspense. Payne County has quite a bit of activity so there is going to be interest. The reason they are interested is that if they pay you 5700 for the rights they make their money back in 6 years (using your figures) provided there are no additional wells drilled on the property, or they want to flip it, or they know more wells will be drilled and want to participate. My advice would be to hold onto what you have unless you (or your family members) need the money. If you do need the money and are going to sell, you can probably get a better deal as first offers are almost always low and will go up.

Thanks to all for the feedback...very much appreciated. I wish there was a way I could better evaluate the potential cash flow from the new well going in. Since they're just starting, I assume a DO wouldn't be forthcoming for some time. Is there any way to know in advance how the interest in this particular well will be divided, or any other tips on making this guestimation?

It is at best an educated guess. Even if you had all the distribution information you don't know how much the well is or is not producing, the price of oil/gas etc.

Glen, There is a lot of drilling going on in Payne County. You can do calculations based on the nearest completion I could find to your minerals.

The link is http://imaging.occeweb.com/OG/Well%20Records/1DD25BB4.pdf . Section 14 is adjacent northwest of your Section 24 and directly west of your Section 13. Keep in mind that the initial production reported is for one day. After a few days it may go higher or lower, but over the months there will be decline, and in some instances it will be steep. The two wells permitted for your Section 24 are http://imaging.occeweb.com/OG/Well%20Records/1DD2876F.pdf and http://imaging.occeweb.com/OG/Well%20Records/1DD2876E.pdf . Neither has been spud yet, but a SWD well on the same pad was spud on Oct. 24. Congratulations for also having minerals in Section 13! You will likely get offers there as well.

Here is the formula. Your net mineral acres divided by acres in the spacing unit= (your percent of the unit) times your royalty rate= (your decimal interest in the well) times the number of barrels per month times the price received. As the saying goes, actual results may vary.

Using some assumptions, your 2.5 nma divided by 640 acres= .00390625 (your percent of the spacing unit) times your royalty (based on HBP with a 40 yr lease, likely 1/8) .125= .00048828, (your decimal interest in each well) times 7,500 barrels per month times $80.00= $292.96. Annual about $3,500. This is just something to think about. Plus there will be gas production also!

Wesley, that's just the kind of information I was looking for. Wow...very much appreciated!

I spent a lot of time today looking through the County Clerk's online database, trying to see how these minerals passed from my grandfather to my siblings and cousins. The investor who made the offer said we owned 50 acres total but the only records of conveyances I could find were a purchase of 160 acres in 1898, a sale of 40 acres of mineral rights in the 20's (SE/4) and then the sale of the 160 acres MINUS the mineral rights in the 40's. I then found by searching on the quarter-section in question lots of activity from 1995 to 2002 but all I checked were in that SE/4 of SE/4 that he sold. There were 7 pages of them and I didn't check them all however. One interesting one I found was an assignment of leases in a sale of equipment and leases to "Three Sands Oil", the predecessor I think to the current manager of the gas unit that's HBP'ing our rights. (Black Cat Oil) It lists the entire section 13 north of 24, the SW/4 of 19-19N-2E to the east of this section and then E/2 NW/4, NE/4, N2 SE/4 & SE/4 SE/4 of 24-T19N-R1E. In other words nothing mentioned about the NE/4, NW/4 or SW/4 of that SE/4 of the section. Could this mean that our minerals should NOT be included in ones held by production by this gas unit? But that can't be because we've definitely been getting those dinky checks all these years for something related to these rights.

In any case, I emailed the guy who made the offer and asked him to show me where we lost those 70 acres and also to explain this anomaly in the lease assignment description from 2002. What made me do the research today in the first place was that in the conveyance document he sent me to sign, he specified that I convey ALL my interests in that section to their company rather than 2.5 mineral acres. I had asked him if this was normal and he said yes it was since he had stated the 2.5 in the accompanying letter. He said they didn't like there to be a public record of their activity in this area. I accepted that explanation but decided to research a little more anyway. At this point I'm going to continue my research until I verify exactly what rights we hold and whether they are HBP or not. I can't believe anyone would be attempting such a blatant scam to buy our minerals on the cheap but I want to be convinced he isn't before dealing further with him.

Thanks so much to everyone for the help.



Wesley Skinner said:

Glen, There is a lot of drilling going on in Payne County. You can do calculations based on the nearest completion I could find to your minerals.

The link is http://imaging.occeweb.com/OG/Well%20Records/1DD25BB4.pdf . Section 14 is adjacent northwest of your Section 24 and directly west of your Section 13. Keep in mind that the initial production reported is for one day. After a few days it may go higher or lower, but over the months there will be decline, and in some instances it will be steep. The two wells permitted for your Section 24 are http://imaging.occeweb.com/OG/Well%20Records/1DD2876F.pdf and http://imaging.occeweb.com/OG/Well%20Records/1DD2876E.pdf . Neither has been spud yet, but a SWD well on the same pad was spud on Oct. 24. Congratulations for also having minerals in Section 13! You will likely get offers there as well.

Here is the formula. Your net mineral acres divided by acres in the spacing unit= (your percent of the unit) times your royalty rate= (your decimal interest in the well) times the number of barrels per month times the price received. As the saying goes, actual results may vary.

Using some assumptions, your 2.5 nma divided by 640 acres= .00390625 (your percent of the spacing unit) times your royalty (based on HBP with a 40 yr lease, likely 1/8) .125= .00048828, (your decimal interest in each well) times 7,500 barrels per month times $80.00= $292.96. Annual about $3,500. This is just something to think about. Plus there will be gas production also!

Just saw my error in reading the document with the assignment of leases. The N/2 of the SE/4 IS mentioned as being leased and therefore explains the anomaly of getting royalties for a lease I didn't think I was participating in. Drat...so our interests are indeed HBP by that gas lease. Wouldn't someone with authority to exercise our rights have had to sign the lease to the gas driller? Not sure how or when that happened.

I still haven't found where my grandfather deeded any of his remaining 120 acres of mineral rights away either. I emailed the person making the offer and he said he would provide his notes showing the research they did to come up with 50 mineral acres as the correct figure. I did find an entry in 1980 where the entire SW/4 SE/4 of that section was leased by another party. Can't see anything about where she acquired it. The investor says the online database isn't nearly as complete as that at the courthouse yet and that's probably why. I will await his title search notes and go from there. I'm about 6 or 7 hours from Stillwater and may have to go down there eventually to poke around the courthouse documents.

Glen Ingram said:

Wesley, that's just the kind of information I was looking for. Wow...very much appreciated!

I spent a lot of time today looking through the County Clerk's online database, trying to see how these minerals passed from my grandfather to my siblings and cousins. The investor who made the offer said we owned 50 acres total but the only records of conveyances I could find were a purchase of 160 acres in 1898, a sale of 40 acres of mineral rights in the 20's (SE/4) and then the sale of the 160 acres MINUS the mineral rights in the 40's. I then found by searching on the quarter-section in question lots of activity from 1995 to 2002 but all I checked were in that SE/4 of SE/4 that he sold. There were 7 pages of them and I didn't check them all however. One interesting one I found was an assignment of leases in a sale of equipment and leases to "Three Sands Oil", the predecessor I think to the current manager of the gas unit that's HBP'ing our rights. (Black Cat Oil) It lists the entire section 13 north of 24, the SW/4 of 19-19N-2E to the east of this section and then E/2 NW/4, NE/4, N2 SE/4 & SE/4 SE/4 of 24-T19N-R1E. In other words nothing mentioned about the NE/4, NW/4 or SW/4 of that SE/4 of the section. Could this mean that our minerals should NOT be included in ones held by production by this gas unit? But that can't be because we've definitely been getting those dinky checks all these years for something related to these rights.

In any case, I emailed the guy who made the offer and asked him to show me where we lost those 70 acres and also to explain this anomaly in the lease assignment description from 2002. What made me do the research today in the first place was that in the conveyance document he sent me to sign, he specified that I convey ALL my interests in that section to their company rather than 2.5 mineral acres. I had asked him if this was normal and he said yes it was since he had stated the 2.5 in the accompanying letter. He said they didn't like there to be a public record of their activity in this area. I accepted that explanation but decided to research a little more anyway. At this point I'm going to continue my research until I verify exactly what rights we hold and whether they are HBP or not. I can't believe anyone would be attempting such a blatant scam to buy our minerals on the cheap but I want to be convinced he isn't before dealing further with him.

Thanks so much to everyone for the help.



Wesley Skinner said:

Glen, There is a lot of drilling going on in Payne County. You can do calculations based on the nearest completion I could find to your minerals.

The link is http://imaging.occeweb.com/OG/Well%20Records/1DD25BB4.pdf . Section 14 is adjacent northwest of your Section 24 and directly west of your Section 13. Keep in mind that the initial production reported is for one day. After a few days it may go higher or lower, but over the months there will be decline, and in some instances it will be steep. The two wells permitted for your Section 24 are http://imaging.occeweb.com/OG/Well%20Records/1DD2876F.pdf and http://imaging.occeweb.com/OG/Well%20Records/1DD2876E.pdf . Neither has been spud yet, but a SWD well on the same pad was spud on Oct. 24. Congratulations for also having minerals in Section 13! You will likely get offers there as well.

Here is the formula. Your net mineral acres divided by acres in the spacing unit= (your percent of the unit) times your royalty rate= (your decimal interest in the well) times the number of barrels per month times the price received. As the saying goes, actual results may vary.

Using some assumptions, your 2.5 nma divided by 640 acres= .00390625 (your percent of the spacing unit) times your royalty (based on HBP with a 40 yr lease, likely 1/8) .125= .00048828, (your decimal interest in each well) times 7,500 barrels per month times $80.00= $292.96. Annual about $3,500. This is just something to think about. Plus there will be gas production also!

Glen, I don’t want to create expectations which might be very disappointing, but want to illustrate the potential value of a mere 2.5 acres, which will explain why these companies will send you such a ridiculous offer. They think of it as “good business practice” rather than a scam. They do view the odds highly in their favor, and of course they don’t want a public record of their activity.

Take a look at this link
http://imaging.occeweb.com/AP/CaseFiles/occ5151751.pdf . It shows the intended drill path for your two wells (note the proximity to the successful well in Sec.14). These two wells are planned for the Mississippian formation, for which the parallel horizontal laterals must be spaced a minimum of 660' apart. Note that there will be sufficient space for a possible additional 5 wells in this formation for the section. With these wells they will also be testing the Woodford Shale. If the Woodford looks productive, there could be additional wells, and because the shale is more dense than concrete, laterals in that formation are allowed a minimum of 330' apart. Just a note of caution, it may be many years before the section is drilled out.

Use very conservative figures with the calculation formula I gave you and choose a conservative number of wells which you think might be drilled in the section to estimate payments.

This link http://imaging.occeweb.com/AP/Orders/occ5149281.pdf explains why these two wells are set to be drilled very soon (and why the agent is probably pushing you to sell quickly).

About determining the number of acres you own, unless you are serious about selling, do it to satisfy your curiosity. Before you receive any royalties on these new wells, a Title Opinion attorney and staff (professionals at this) will account for ownership of minerals in the unit. If there is any cloud to your chain of title, you will be notified as to requirements to be met before a Division Order is issued.

I recommend you look at, and perhaps print “Basic Information for the Oklahoma Royalty Owner” Last Revision - September 2012, (Oklahoma Corporation Commission) found at http://wayback.archive-it.org/2097/20130701221011/http://www.occewe... .
This 37 page + cover guide is excellent - lots of good information! Also check the website of the National Association of Royalty Owners at http://www.naro-us.org/ and the Oklahoma Chapter page there.

Before the 15 minute edit period expired, I checked if anything additional had been scanned into the system today - and here is the spud notice on the #1 well http://imaging.occeweb.com/OG/Well%20Records/1DD29C5A.pdf . The #2 well is likely being drilled right now, may even be completed given the time lag with notifications.

Wesley, again thanks so much for taking the time to help me out on this decision. You obviously spent a lot of time with this analysis and I would think others might also benefit from seeing this example of how to come up with potential cash flows for their minerals.

The sales agent did get back to me and gave me a complete trail through the online database of my family's mineral interests. I am now convinced he is not in any way dishonest...in fact, to the contrary, very forthright in providing valuable information and honest. Overall a great salesman. However, as you put it, his offer is pretty ridiculous in light of your financial analysis. Where, earlier this week and even yesterday I was leaning towards selling my interest at his price, I now am considering offering to buy my brothers' interests in my self-directed IRA. (They are both in their 80's with no heirs and cash flows don't mean as much to them as good old immediate cash.) I don't have now or have ever had any investments that came close to the returns this could produce. There is risk of course but a lot of the risk seems to have been removed since there are already wells being drilled and this is after all a very productive region. I think I'm willing to take on the small risk that the wells might not be successful.

It's been fun this week learning a little about the oil business and I won't mind at all having to keep up with it in order to manage this investment.

I know this is about another area but I haven't had much success in getting a response from another discussion I started but does anyone know what's going on in Section 10/18N/03E? I've received one offer so far to purchase my mineral interests for $4,000 per acre but the royalty checks have been running around $200 per month. Something doesn't make sense with these figures so I'm wondering what's going on in that area. I live in Alabama so I really have no other way to check on the activity other than in here. Thank you for any help that can be provided.

Wesley, I emailed the sales agent this morning with my refusal of his offer and he responded with this:

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Glen,
Yes, I had called your brother to see if we could take the three of you out to Joe T. Garcias when you came to town on Monday and he informed me of your conversation. I'm glad that you have found me honest and informative throughout this process. We take pride in being honest and forthright about what we do. We also do not try to persuade anyone to sell that does not want to. We provide the opportunity to sell for a competitive price, and although, you may feel that our price has come in low, I can assure you that 2300/acre is a very high price on our end.
It is also very easy to overestimate a well's return and we did this same thing when we first started out in the business. It is not uncommon for a well in Payne County to have initial test production of 100 Bbls/day to 300 Bbls/day, you are right. However, these initial tests are not in any way representative of what a well will do over the course of a year or even for the first few months of production. A unit that produced 250 Bbls/day for each of two wells for an entire year would not only be the largest, most successful unit in Payne County, but Oklahoma as well.
Current drilling in Payne County targets the Mississippi Lime formation, which in the last few years has shown tremendous drop offs in production after even the first month. An ideal well for us, and something that we hope for, and are excited for when we own in one, will produce 175 Bbls for the first week or so and then taper off over the next few weeks to average at about 30-55 Bbls/day for the next 9-12 months and then continue to taper off from there. Whenever we buy in Payne County, we try to purchase for a price that we would hope to be able to make our money back in five to six years.
If we were to assume an average of 75 Bbls/day for a year for the two possible wells in your section, we would calculate as such:
2.5/640 acres = 0.00390625 x 1/8 Royalty = 0.00048828125 x PRODUCTION (when production equals 27,375 Bbls/year & $85.00 price of oil) = $1,136.17 for the first year.
If we were even able to suppose that a sandy formation could hold up this kind of production consistently for five years, which is contrary to the historic production of other horizontal wells over the past 5 years for the area, then we would be looking at a five year total return of $5,680.84. (once again, this is an unrealistic assumption) We are offering to pay a total of $5,750.00 for your interest. Realistically, however, it will likely take us 8-10 years to get our money out of your acreage assuming that the price of oil doesn't skyrocket, or that if another 3 wells aren't drilled in this section.
When we made our offer of $1,600.00 per acre, we were basing this price off of our experience with the other wells that we own in this area. The only reason we rose to 2300/acre was to beat the competing offer you told us you received. And although this is higher than we would care to purchase for, we strive to be competitive and were not wanting to lose an opportunity to own in another unit, since our business model is based off of diversity and that we would like to be in as many units as we can. Since we first spoke, we have acquired other interests in this section for the $1,600/acre price and have had no mention of another competing and higher offer. So, it seems like whoever made the other offer realized they had overextended themselves and pulled out of the section with this offer. We have even purchased 5.25 acres in this section in the last week for 1600/acre from another Royalty company that has 25 years experience in the area and that considered our offer to be fair.
I am attaching the production figures we have seen in Payne County over the last year for wells in this immediate area. We purchased this acreage for $1,700.00 per acre and, as you can see from the monthly checks we received, there is usually a large check for the first month and then a sharp decrease from there. We will be lucky to make our money back on these within ten years, and these were leased at 3/16ths Royalty.
I wanted to try to explain what sort of production you should expect coming from someone who owns producing minerals in Payne and has worked in Payne county for almost eight years. Of course, you never know if a well is going to be a historic gusher or not until it is drilled, or a dry hole for that matter. You could see slightly more or less than the numbers we have estimated for your section, but we certainly feel that we made the best offer that we could given possible production.
Please let me know if you have any further questions about our offer. We would be glad to extend our offer to be valid for the next 15 days and after the 22nd, we would need to reassess the area.
I hope this information helps.
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I told you this guy was good. What do you think?

Yeah, he's a good salesman. LOL, his 'reassessment' may be a higher offer or he may let you think he's going away. There are many wells in Payne Co coming in at over 600 bbl/day, but it is true that they drop. I've been told they expect them to 'peter out' after 5-10 years. But the way technology is changing, they may be doing something else in 5 years that brings in more oil/gas revenue. He didn't mention the Haak 7-17 when he was talking initial production. Section 17-20N-3E. Came in from the Mississippian with initial test of over 600 bbl/day. Still making close to 100 I've heard. Or the one next to it, same initial numbers, but commingled formations, Woodford & Mississippian. They aren't drilling many dry holes in Payne County right now. If Devon is the operator, they will probably make a well. American Energy has the former Chesapeake President at the helm, so don't count them out. He knows what he's doing, too. If you don't need the money, sit back & collect the checks.

Glen (and Ann), to get an idea about what is happening in and around your section, open this link http://imaging.occeweb.com/imaging/OGWellRecords.aspx , then enter the Legal Location. Next check the box Exclude ECM (unless your minerals are in the Panhandle). Click Search, to see EVERYTHING in the OCC system that has been scanned for that section.

You may wish to limit the search to a more recent date if the section has been heavily developed over the years. Drop down to Scan Date, enter a beginning date and use today's date in the last field. These are documents that the O&G companies never send mineral owners. As you begin researching your minerals, leave the Form # blank. Later you may want to limit to specific documents. Some of these are: Form 1000, Permit to Drill, Recomplete or Reenter; 1001A Spud Notice; 1002A Completion Report; and 1073 Transfer of Operator. There are other forms, but these will probably be of most interest.

IMPORTANT - because surface location for horizontal drilling is often in an adjacent section, be sure to search all the 8 surrounding sections! If you use %, the wildcard symbol, instead of the section number, you will pull up all documents for the entire township. This is especially timesaving if your section is in the interior of the township.

If a well is classified primarily as an oil well, and if taxes have been paid to the Oklahoma Tax Commission, you can see monthly production figures by going to this site https://www4.oktax.onenet.net/GrossProduction/PublicSearchPUNbyLega... .

Be sure to share this information with others who come on the Forum.

Glen, I never recommend selling minerals. If you have a gas well that is still producing after 40 years, your minerals are worth more than $2300 per acre, because the new horizontal wells can last longer than the old verticals. You could be selling minerals that will produce for another 40 plus years and new technology is drastically increasing the recovery rate. AEP has two permits to drill in section 24, both for Mississippian wells, one is in the SE and one in the SW and the SW has been spud, so they could be actively drilling it right now or very soon. Back about 2010, test wells were drilled all around you, so AEP knows exactly what it is doing.