Anyone know where the ownership of brine, it's byproduct and other chemical substances associated with or contained within like iodine, solution gas, bromide, magnesium, potassium, lithium, boron, chlorine, calcium, sodium, sulphur, barium, etc., comes from in Oklahoma? I understand it's not part of the mineral interest and was told it was considered part of the surface rights even though it comes from around 2 mile deep wells.
Joe, it does not seem logical to me that the brine would belong to the surface just because the minerals are in solution. I could be wrong but it sounds to me like someone equated brine, which contains water with water rights. Brine come up with oil also, are the oil companies stealing water?
Hi r w,
Logic doesn't hold when it comes to brine in Oklahoma. Iochem has a large production facility over here and there are several chemical companies that produce or extract Iodine from the brine and Oklahoma is one of the largest producers in the USA. In Oklahoma they past statutes concerning brine and believe it or not I am pretty certain it is part of the surface rights, that is what Iochem told me. I have never dealt with it before and neither has most attorney's. They got heavy into it back in the last big oil bust as a way to keep drilling companies busy as so many went out of business when the price of oil plummeted. I thought it was part of the mineral rights which in Oklahoma covers oil and gas but not brine or the chemicals associated with brine. These brine wells are drilled about 2 miles deep. I was hoping someone here knew more about.
Calcium, lithium and magnesium sound like minerals to me, oil and gas could be considered chemicals, maybe they should belong to the surface owner also.
r w,
I didn't create the meaning of, description of or laws pertaining to oil, gas, mineral interest, chemicals or any other substance in Oklahoma, but you should write the federal government and the state legislation in Oklahoma and tell them what you think of their decisions and what you believe, I am certain they'd agree with you and follow your advice. Thank you for your contribution and sharing your knowledge in this matter.
Joe, I appreciate your faith in me. If you would like me to write a letter to the Ok commission, saying that calcium/ lithium etc are minerals because they can also be found in solid form ok, but I am going to keep the fact that oil and gas more closely meets the criteria of chemical than these other minerals between you,me and the readers of this forum because I would like for my friends to keep their oil.
It's funny that the mining of potash frequently involves drilling a well and pumping water in to dissolve the deposits and then they are pumped out. It would be funny that as soon as they are in solution they would belong to the surface owner and not the mineral owner because now they are mixed with water. It is confounding to me that oil and gas, being produced with water is ok, but producing some other mineral and some water along with it is not. If someone only retained the rights to oil and gas when they sold the surface, of course the other minerals belong to the surface owner. If the property owner severed and reserved ALL minerals when they sold the surface, I think those named above, whether chemical in nature or not, should belong to the mineral owner. Of course different places have different rules, in ND, scorea and gravel are minerals.
Joe,
Check with Intrepid Potash in Denver. They extract chemical salts from evaporites by solution mining in Utah and New Mexico. Most of it is from federal rights but some fee owned deposits are involved. Also, solution mining of uranium (in-situ extraction) is done in Texas that could set a precedent for ownership mineable in that manner.
RW, Those are chemical ""elements". Ownership of the elements depends on the ownership of the minerals they are part of. A 1954 definition of "minerals" however indicates that a mineral is anything that is not organic. Sooo, you could be right again. Boring, i know but its just what I do, minerals.
Gary H.
r w kennedy said:
Calcium, lithium and magnesium sound like minerals to me, oil and gas could be considered chemicals, maybe they should belong to the surface owner also.
I believe what Iochem meant was that brine rights were originally owned by the surface owner from patent or fee simple. I know brine rights are not included in mineral rights and by Oklahoma state statute title 17 section 502 subsection 4, brine rights, and all of its constituent parts and chemical substances therein contained, including, but not limited to bromine, magnesium, potassium, lithium, boron, chlorine, iodine, calcium, strontium, sodium, sulphur, barium or other chemical substances produced with or separated from such saltwater. I take it it comes down to where these substances are found or came from, such if they were associated with the brine or not. I was looking for help and the reply " oil and gas could be considered chemicals, maybe they should belong to the surface owner also." in the moment was taken as an insult. It was a long frustrating day and I know you surely didn't mean it that way.
Thanks Gary for the suggestions, I finally found what I was looking for and figured it out.
It surprised me that all the attorneys around here didn't know much about brine, solution gas or the conveyance of them.
Gary, I think that I remember that Oklahoma follows the doctrine of ejusdem generis in rules of construction and if that is the case, the groundwater, aquifers, etc are owned by the owner of the soil. Is that right?
Bob, the term surface rights is misleading to many people. To explain, the surface estate is fee simple absolute stripped of its mineral estate. Fact is, the "surface estate" owns the interstitial space in the producing formation.
Keep in mind that surface (as in surface vs subsurface) is the surface of the land and surface estate is a collection of rights in the land.
I have no idea about rules of construction (except tunnels Ha) but I learned through the management of some lignite (low BTU coal) for a Railroad in Texas years ago that If the surface is disturbed for mining purposes, the mineral mined belongs to the surface owner so severing minerals from the fee surface is not a simple matter when it comes to exploitation. BYW Thanks for the explanation of fee simple. I will find many good uses for ti.
Buddy Cotten said:
Gary, I think that I remember that Oklahoma follows the doctrine of ejusdem generis in rules of construction and if that is the case, the groundwater, aquifers, etc are owned by the owner of the soil. Is that right?
Bob, the term surface rights is misleading to many people. To explain, the surface estate is fee simple absolute stripped of its mineral estate. Fact is, the "surface estate" owns the interstitial space in the producing formation.
Keep in mind that surface (as in surface vs subsurface) is the surface of the land and surface estate is a collection of rights in the land.
Best
Yes, unless reserved by the US Government the surface rights and all other rights such as brine and mineral were a part of the fee simple at patent. I didn't word it very well before when describing what Iochem was meaning. Not certain in Oklahoma if one can sever surface water rights but air rights at least as pertaining to wind farms have been sold off.
I had a conversation with our attorney about this Wednesday and he said surface water rights could be severed/reserved in a sale. It was something I had wondered about as we are considering the sale of a farm at this time.
Mineral Joe said:
Yes, unless reserved by the US Government the surface rights and all other rights such as brine and mineral were a part of the fee simple at patent. I didn't word it very well before when describing what Iochem was meaning. Not certain in Oklahoma if one can sever surface water rights but air rights at least as pertaining to wind farms have been sold off.
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Thanks Rick, I wasn't certain if water rights could be severed in Oklahoma so that's great to know. Does that include surface and groundwater in aquifers also when you reserve it or does it need to be stipulated as to which or both your reserving? Where do coal rights lay, are coal rights severed with mineral rights in Oklahoma, they have a lot of coal in Eastern Ok? So is there anything else that can be severed besides the following rights:
Water
Mineral (which includes many such as oil and gas)
Brine
Air
Surface
Jon,
I really don't know, we didn't get that far into the discussion as it wasn't my primary reason for that consultation. It was only mentioned in passing. I I expanded on the conversation a bit because I have some surface rights we are getting ready to place on the market. I know getting sufficient water in Stephens County for the fracturing operations has been an issue and I've also heard a bit about restricting/reserving commercial water rights. So they could use rights for their own use, but not sell it. I’m sure that could get sticky, as would using it for livestock be “own use” or “commercial use”?
Some of the original mineral deeds we have from the state “oil, gas and other minerals” and properties that were purchased from the tribes in the early 1900s and then deeded as “The surface rights only” in the 30s. Subsequent deeds in the early 50s state “oil, gas, casinghead gas, and gasoline”. Then in the late 50s. “oil, gas, and other minerals” and “oil, gas, coal, petroleum, and other minerals. As we get into the 80s I see “oil, gas, hydrocarbons, and other minerals”.
It is interesting to see the different words and I’m sure some of the case law I’m sure that has impacted it would be a huge subject. I know there is case law on coalbed methane that has impacted some of the language.
I also remember specifically something being discussed at a recent NARO conventions. It involved something that was not considered a hydrocarbon that was being recovered as part of the production. Because the lease did not cover this element, they ended up getting 100% of the revenue. Possibly sulfur. I remember it being priced by the ton.
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Mineral Joe said:
Thanks Rick, I wasn't certain if water rights could be severed in Oklahoma so that's great to know. Does that include surface and groundwater in aquifers also when you reserve it or does it need to be stipulated as to which or both your reserving? Where do coal rights lay, are coal rights severed with mineral rights in Oklahoma, they have a lot of coal in Eastern Ok? So is there anything else that can be severed besides the following rights:
Water
Mineral (which includes many such as oil and gas)
Brine
Air
Surface
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I spoke with my attorney last night and he said you can not reserve surface water and if you reserve groundwater others can apply to the state and still drill a well for various reasons without paying you, that you can not restrict someone from their water needs to a certain extent like water to your house or for livestock.
I have been asked about Brine rights, how much are they worth, is there leasing etc like oil & gas, etc. It is starting to come up more and more