When the estate was probated wasn't the minerals probated? This is one of the biggest problems with people not telling their children what they own and don't have anything in writing. If the estate was probated correctly in KS, you should have been getting notices to pay the mineral tax.
In TX, it doesn't work that simple. I feel TX and LA has some of the worst records to research in the US. Guess maybe we could add a few more states, but I don't want to take a page.
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Virginia, if I recall correctly I believe it was not probated and that's how they lost track of it. The same thing happened in Alabama with some property my dad sold in the 70s. He retained 50% of the mineral rights but when he died no one remembered about it so it was never probated. Coincidentally my wife and I bought part of that property from a subsequent owner's estate, and that's when we found out that it only had 50% of the mineral rights. I was able to get signatures from all potential heirs and attestations from third parties that there were no others living and added the other 50% back in on the title.
Virginia Pflum said:
Paul,
Doesn't KS have mineral tax?
When the estate was probated wasn't the minerals probated? This is one of the biggest problems with people not telling their children what they own and don't have anything in writing. If the estate was probated correctly in KS, you should have been getting notices to pay the mineral tax.
In TX, it doesn't work that simple. I feel TX and LA has some of the worst records to research in the US. Guess maybe we could add a few more states, but I don't want to take a page.
An "unknown" mineral interest is included in the "rest and residue" clause of a will, or automatically passes by intestate descent & distribution.
Therefore it is always "probated" in the sense that someone receives it, even if they don't know it.
Landmen are forever calling someone out of the blue to tell them they own a mineral interest they didn't know about.
This is why kids should pay more attention to their parents, especially when they're talking about the "old days". As in "You were a dirt farmer where?"
You are correct regarding the clause. But, I believe that in Oklahoma minerals needs to be probated to some degree to prove ownership. I could be wrong on this. In TX, everything doesn't have to be probated. I think CO has a probate law, haven't done anything in that state for awhile. That is one reason people who own only small acres of minerals in other states, it sometimes wise to sell them instead of paying the price to probate . I feel if you own less than 15 acres it is wise to see who will pay you the most and sell them to someone who has a larger stack in the property.
You'll have to forgive me, but none of that made any sense to me.
First, every state has "a probate law", but nothing "has" to be probated anywhere, and there are no "degrees" of probating an estate. Either it was, or it wasn't. Proving you own something that you received by inheritance is a different matter, however. Orders of a probate court, or conveyances by an independent executor (or personal representative, etc.) acting under letters testamentary, are usually conclusive, but affidavits of heirship, or of "use and possession" are sometimes sufficient, depending on a host of variables I won't list.
Second, to categorically state that a person should sell a small inherited interest rather than establish their ownership by inheritance due to the expense is silly. The purchaser would have the same "problem", and that fact would only depress the sale price. Unscrupulous mineral buyers use that tactic all the time.
Third, your "fifteen acre" comment is completely arbitrary, and I'll go on record right here saying that anyone who is considering selling a small mineral interest should investigate the local drilling/leasing activity first. What a severed mineral interest is worth is anyone's guess, right up until one sells and another buys at some agreed upon, arms-length price. Then the issue is settled, as far as the law is concerned.
Anyone reading this who has a mineral interest they're considering selling can feel free to contact me to discuss what constitutes a "fair" price. But no legal advice!
I guess I wrote before I thought. Yes all state have probate law, some are more costly than others and what I was trying to say is proof of ownership.
Second, regarding my comment on degrees of probate, again you are right. But, if you have lots of property in the state the probate may take 9 months on up and be several thousand dollars. Or it could be a short time with little property and only a few hundred dollars.
When I'm talking about selling a person minerals, I'm not suggesting anyone sells.
But, let say you own 5 acres of mineral in KS, another 5 acres in Co, another 5 acres in 10 other states. Now you pass away and your heirs are proving ownership in each state, but the minerals are only worth a few thousand. Are you telling me that it's not better to sell the minerals than to divide them between another 4 or 5 people. And how much would the lawyer fees be for each state? And what about probate cost for each state. I guess that was my point. Of course a living trust would take care of some of this, but then you have the cost of the trust, etc.
Since we're on the subject of probating ... we probated my Father's Will as Muniment of Title ... less stress on the family. And, there was no lengthly, time-consuming process involved. But maybe that all depends on the size of the estate. Regardless, I am attaching some informative reading on probating as Muniment of Title.
Case No. 09-cv-1894 is about Robertson county defendants Russ and McCullough (R&M) acting in conjunction with their primary co-conspirator, district judge Robert M. Stem, extorting money and stealing land and mineral interest for more than 15 years in Robertson county.
R&M oftened used shell companies to create sham transactions where company A purports to transfer its land or mineral interests to company B even though company A never owned the land or mineral interest in the first place. R&M, acting through The Firm, then seek a declaratory judgment that company B owns the land or mineral interest. Judge Stem grants R&M permission to serve notice on the allegedly undetermined owners by publication in local newspapers.
After actual owners fail to respond, Stem at the behest of R&M appoints D. Harris as attorney ad litem, ostensibly to represent the interests of the ACTUAL landowners.
On the same day he is appointed, D.Harris declares that he cannot locate the actual owners (even though most of them are readily identifiable) and Stem appoints Nestor Leamon as receiver to sell the property. Leamon then sells the property to R&M at prices far below market value and the proceeds are put into the registry of the court. If the actual owners fail to claim the money within 7 years, Stem gives it back to shell company B, i.e. back to R&M.
You can read more details about various fraud and extortion practices these and other crooks employ with people's land and mineral interests Case No. 09-cv-1894.
This is what you call no justice in this country. These are the same crooks that stolen my family mineral rights and have gotten away with, you can see these crooks represented my family in a oil and gas lease
After reading the information on these pages, what sort of prophylaxis should one do to protect their mineral interests from crooks such as these? I live in a different state from where the mineral interests are located and sadly, I don't trust some of my relatives.
Rodney, I would say to keep your ownership updated with some kind of filing, affidavit of identity or other such filing. If I were looking to steal minerals, I would be looking for some that didn't look like anyone had been keeping an eye on, with nothing recorded for over a decade. The common thread seems to be the claim that the owner could not be found, a recent recording with your correct address might make someone think twice.
Rodney Moats said:
After reading the information on these pages, what sort of prophylaxis should one do to protect their mineral interests from crooks such as these? I live in a different state from where the mineral interests are located and sadly, I don't trust some of my relatives.
I had a similar thing happen, but they sold mineral under the whole section and included my 160A which they didn't have any minerals under. A guy in OK sold it to UNI royalty in Colo. When I found it, I called and ask them to file a correct of the deed within 10 days. They sold it to an oil company in TX real fast. I had to hire an attorney, sue them and after several thousands dollar, they did file a correction to the deed. I check my mineral/land each year in each county and state. In Okla. you can go to www.okcountyrecords.com and get some information, but don't just put your name in, put your legal. In Colo, you can pay a company to get your information. In TX, you make an appointment at the Co clerk office to use the computer. I'm sure you can hire people in TX to do this also. Even keeping a close eye on everything, you can still have people trying to take what isn't theirs.
Lots of my minerals are out of state, so I make the trip or pay someone to check for me.
In Texas, redemption from a valid tax sale is two years for homesteaded property, and six months for non-homesteaded property. Obviously severed minerals cannot qualify for the homestead exemption, not even if grand-pa homesteaded it right after the "recent unpleasantness". You have to be living on the land at the time of the tax sale. In addition, you must pay the purchaser a 25% premium over and above what he paid in the first year, and 50% if you let it run over 365 days.
Also, a person may well file a deed to your minerals or sell them to another person or company, but that doesn't create title in them, or their purchaser, who cannot call himself a BFP, since a void or "wild" deed doesn't create color of title. No how, no where...
All a void deed does is cloud the record owner's title, and there are civil remedies for that.
But a person who obtains royalties due another through the use of a void or falsified deed might be guilty of fraud, and certainly would be liable for civil conversion, both subject to the applicable limitations of actions.
Here's an interesting questions. Let's say I own a house and all the minerals, I obtain a homestead exemption for that property, I'm living on the property, and then the county sells my property for unpaid back taxes. Let's say that I cannot keep up with my mortgage payments but I do want to have my minerals back because there is a producing well associated with my minerals. Can I "redeem" the mineral estate ONLY from a valid tax sale, and, if so, which time period would apply, two years or six months?
r w . . . Good idea and may I add something to your comment to further protect yourself. Make sure to spell out everything in each recording like "Oil. Gas, all other minerals etc. " Sadly, there are more thief’s among us than you can shake a stick at (relatives or not) protect yourself or be ready to fight like a mad dog to expose these crooks!
Thanks again, r w. , you’re a very wise man!!
Pete - The answer depends. I advise people if they own surface and minerals, if a mortgage is ever involved, to exclude the minerals from the mortgage. This would prevent a foreclosure of real property (surface) from the mineral interest. Normally if you have a mortgage you would not be delinquent on the property taxes because lenders are usually pretty good about making sure that the taxes get paid. Most of the properties I have seen that are delinquent on taxes that have a mortgage, the lender ends up buying the property to preserve their interest in it, or the lender makes arrangement with the owner to pay the taxes through a loan modification, etc.
All of that being said, in Texas, we are generally taxed on "real property" such as land, and what is improved on the land (houses, barns, buildings, etc). Mineral interests are generally NOT taxed, however ROYALTY interests are. If you are leased and held by production, and the county is taxing you on your home / land (real property) and your royalty interest separate, then the delinquency of taxes on the real property would not sever your minerals if the real property was sold at a tax sale, given your taxes are current on the royalty or mineral interest. If a royalty interest is delinquent and sold, the buyer only has the right to the income in that lease, so long as the lease exists.
Pete Wrench said:
Here's an interesting questions. Let's say I own a house and all the minerals, I obtain a homestead exemption for that property, I'm living on the property, and then the county sells my property for unpaid back taxes. Let's say that I cannot keep up with my mortgage payments but I do want to have my minerals back because there is a producing well associated with my minerals. Can I "redeem" the mineral estate ONLY from a valid tax sale, and, if so, which time period would apply, two years or six months?
Good point about property taxes' rarely being delinquent when a mortgage still is in effect. But I'm not certain about the statement that a tax sale would not "sever your minerals if the real property was sold at a tax sale." I know that in Texas a FORECLOSURE would indeed take the minerals along with the surface (unless the minerals were not part of the mortgaged premises, obviously), and with the minerals any royalty stream of income attributable to that mineral ownership (but not any NPRI associated with that tract of land), but I don't recall if the tax sale is different.
