Old Mineral Rights

General Mineral Rights Discussion
21

I have already agreed, numerous times, that in the final analysis Mineral Joe's advice was correct. How many times do I have to say that? My only objection was that he assumed "facts not in evidence," as a lawyer might say, namely that grandma was deceased BEFORE the poster confirmed such, and offered up half-baked advice based upon that assumption. How hard would it have been to ask, "Is your grandmother deceased?" before offering a plan of action? What if grandma were still alive, would you still be this defensive (and offensive)? No (and yes), methinks.

I never suggested or asserted or concluded that grandma was NCM, that's just something that you keep peddling to try to make me look bad. That was just a scenario, which I admitted was highly unlikely, to prove that Mineral Joe jumped the gun. It was not mentioned in the original posting, but neither was it mentioned in the original posting that grandma was deceased.

Let me point out three more false assumptions that you are peddling. First, you assume that because I switched industries that I "couldn't make it" in the first one. I was a software developer for a decade, so I guess if I were as incompetent as you would have others believe, then I must have been a pretty good actor to fool my employers for that long! My last gig doing that type of work paid over $100K per year, and that was in the late 1990's, when $100K was worth something! So if earning that kind of money defines me as a failure, I guess I'm guilty!

Second, you assume that because I have made the cut in the land business when others got laid off I must have done so through nepotism. While I have gotten several landman jobs through networking, I have never gotten one or kept one through nepotism, unlike many of my co-workers over the years. I have done so through my qualifications, expertise, and hard work. One broker in particular I was working for really wanted to fire me because he did not like me, but I was so indispensable to him in so many ways that he literally could not fire me or he would have inflicted serious damage on his company and his client. So he kept me...for seven years.

Third, you assume that because I dared to criticize YOU in particular that I "don't like it that there are people smarter than [I] in the business." Once again, you are frequently wrong but never in doubt. I love being around persons who are smarter than I am, that's the only way that I will get any smarter. Just last week I took a two-day AAPL class with a room full of persons smarter than I, at least on the topic discussed. It was extremely satisfying professionally speaking.

And to further prove to you that you are wrong on this last of your litany of false assumptions, I am ceasing direct communication with you. Don't think that I won't be watching you, though, not because I admire you or respect you or lionize you as you vapidly theorized, but because you have a history of providing bad advice to the persons who come to this Forum for information and assistance. And in some cases your bad advice would have caused them problems or cost them money, which is something I will not tolerate. So when you do so again I will be there, and I won't be cutting you any slack.

22

Dear Pete,

The line forms to the right. Take a number.

Pete Wrench said:

I

And to further prove to you that you are wrong on this last of your litany of false assumptions, I am ceasing direct communication with you. Don't think that I won't be watching you, though, not because I admire you or respect you or lionize you as you vapidly theorized, but because you have a history of providing bad advice to the persons who come to this Forum for information and assistance. And in some cases your bad advice would have caused them problems or cost them money, which is something I will not tolerate. So when you do so again I will be there, and I won't be cutting you any slack.

23

Thank you for your notifiying me of this discussion. I’d first like to recognize Mr. Dave Quincy for his remarkable eloquence in addressing this issue. In my thirty-three years as a landman, (RL, RPL, CPL) and all things there unto pertaining … I’m rather shocked by this select choice of language. Where on earth did you learn to address matters like this…and in the manner you described, you should be mindful of people’s situations, right or wrong! There is no need whatsoever to be so reckless in this regard. Either they have something lease or not… makes no difference. But I assure sir that this type of behavior is completely unacceptable… You should thoroughly consider retracting your comment and find a qualified counselor to discuss your frustrations. I’m not saying this to be disrespectful to you as a person. I look for the good in all men and generally find it. Please save this type of discussion for whoever you work with. It “really” does not belong here unless of course you consider adopting a more professional response. I am, Sincerely, Thomas Thompson, Trustee The Trinity Mineral Trust.

24

Geeeeesh! I have read each one of these posts. I will be honest and say that I don't understand most of what you are talking about. I honestly know anything about this industry and definitely don't speak the "lingo" of it. If you were talking about sociology, photography, or the Spanish language, I would be an expert, lol. I will say that I kind of find it humorous that you guys are arguing in a public forum and going on and on and on and on and on. Seriously, I thought mainly women did this?

Anyways, I hope each and every one of you has an awesome day today :)

25


Karen,

Glad that you got a laugh out of it. I'm glad that Mineral Joe was able to help you out. His original reply to you was based on the facts that you originally presented in a very articulate manner. I'm sure that most of us knew exactly where you were coming from. I know that Mineral Joe and I did. Good luck, and I hope that your mom gets a call to lease soon.

Let us know if you need any more help. I know that if someone else asks a question, and I feel that I can help them out, I will try to do so. I have a history of accurate replies based on many years of experience. The mineral owner posters have always expressed heartfelt thanks, and that is gratifying. It makes it all worthwhile. Take care.
Karen Lynch said:

Geeeeesh! I have read each one of these posts. I will be honest and say that I don't understand most of what you are talking about. I honestly know anything about this industry and definitely don't speak the "lingo" of it. If you were talking about sociology, photography, or the Spanish language, I would be an expert, lol. I will say that I kind of find it humorous that you guys are arguing in a public forum and going on and on and on and on and on. Seriously, I thought mainly women did this?

Anyways, I hope each and every one of you has an awesome day today :)

26

Probably the first thing you need to do is determine if she still owns them. A lot can happen if a significant period of time has elapsed and your mother did not stay on top of it during the time that royalty payments were not being made in regards to taxes and inheritance conveyance issues. If your county maintains rolls for severed mineral owners for taxation purposes, that would probably be the place to start.

27

Kinda childish ain't it ... the bottom line is that in most states mineral rights do not expire but because few people have deeds (it was a deed reservation instead), the chain of title is difficult to follow and often the landman may find the name but no address. Really a problem when the name to start with was say, "Bob Smith" .... So if you go to the CH to declare the ownership and/or find(create?) a tax identity, then the true owner or descendant can be found.

Affidavit of ownership is "great" but a poor way to be found and therefore, speaking from my family's own experience, we brought up the probate for both my grandfather and my father and uncle (cha-ching for the lawyer) and joined the interests into a single family partnership which can be seamlessly passed down thru the coming generations. That process varies state by state and can be simple or complex.

Karen Lynch said:

Geeeeesh! I have read each one of these posts. I will be honest and say that I don't understand most of what you are talking about. I honestly know anything about this industry and definitely don't speak the "lingo" of it. If you were talking about sociology, photography, or the Spanish language, I would be an expert, lol. I will say that I kind of find it humorous that you guys are arguing in a public forum and going on and on and on and on and on. Seriously, I thought mainly women did this?

Anyways, I hope each and every one of you has an awesome day today :)

28

How do I find out? Go to the court house? Now we cannot find the papers.

29

Well that message was a fail from my phone. If I go to the court house, can I find the papers for the mineral rights? If I bring all the wills, will that help?

30

Not necessarily. It depends on how it's worded, and filed by the Office of County Clerk. The single family partnership would not necessarily be "seamless".

Based on the original facts as presented, she tells us that it was in her Grandmother's name, and she wants the record to reflect that it is now in her mother's. I don't think that she needs to waste time and money, that she may not have, to pay a lawyer to set up the partnership. If the affidavit is done right, there should be no problem.

She should definitely include the legal description in the affidavit. That way, the abstract office should pick it up, and include in their records under a particular survey. Landmen often use abstract offices. It would then be more likely flagged in the Office of County Clerk, in their indices, as being applicable to a particular survey, and that would catch the eye of a landman doing title in that survey.

The single family partnership isn't a bad idea per se, but in the present case, it would seem expensive, and over-the-top.

Another suggestion, much cheaper than that, would be for Karen Lynch to get a standard Producers 88 lease form, and have her mother execute a lease with Karen Lynch, as lessee, for ten dollars and other valuable consideration. Make the primary term for 6 months or something like that. That would be a way to bring her mother into the title. The title searcher would see that seamlessly. They might consider the mom a stranger in title, but that wouldn't be the first time. That is what the title curative phase is all about.

While researching records, if I see a "strange" name on a lease, I don't panic. I don't ponder it for too long. I pick up the phone, and try to get in touch with the lessor. I politely identify myself as a landman, and inform them that I saw their lease of record in Karen's office in Orange. That I did run the title, and that I have been unable to ascertain as to how they acquired the interest. Quite often the explanation will be a simple one.

Possibly that Lucy Baines (the prior lessor of record) was their mother.

Then the usual questions follow: "Did she have a will?" Did you have any siblings? Where did she die? Would you accept the lease terms? "YES"!! I think it would be a good idea if you sign this Heirship Affidavit that I brought as well, Mrs. Durham. Since Mrs. Baines died intestate, it might be a good idea to file this when I file the Oil & Gas Lease, or at least I will submit it with my lease package to the principal, so they don't think I belong in Rusk if a due diligence team goes behind me in the near future. It may help me support my findings, or why I decided to lease you in particular.

P.S. All of the above advice assumes that Karen's grandmother owned 100% of the minerals, and that her mother is the only heir/beneficiary of the grandmother's estate.

31

Sorry, Karen. My last reply was to Shields.

Karen Lynch said:

Well that message was a fail from my phone. If I go to the court house, can I find the papers for the mineral rights? If I bring all the wills, will that help?
32

Yes, if you have any wills that bring title into your mom, they should be filed of record in the county where the land is located. I guess you are referring to the will of your grandmother.

If your grandmother's name was Lucy Baines, and she was leased of record by that name, I would have your mother give an affidavit as Marie Baines, also known as Marie Banes Durham. That was it would more than likely be indexed in the Office of County clerk under the same name as the last lease, and be flagged better for the title searcher.

33

TYPO: That way it would be better flagged for the title searcher to not have only your mom's married name as the one giving the affidavit of ownership or heirship, great ways to flag an interest if done right.

Dave Quincy said:

Yes, if you have any wills that bring title into your mom, they should be filed of record in the county where the land is located. I guess you are referring to the will of your grandmother.

If your grandmother's name was Lucy Baines, and she was leased of record by that name, I would have your mother give an affidavit as Marie Baines, also known as Marie Banes Durham. That was it would more than likely be indexed in the Office of County clerk under the same name as the last lease, and be flagged better for the title searcher.

34

Possibly. A mineral title search can be easy. It can be complex. Quite often the deputy clerks will not want to help you. Some might. If you ask a landman there to point you in the right direction, they might help you. They may not have time to do it for you, but maybe a deputy clerk or a landman can tell you what indexes would be the best place to start.

Karen Lynch said:

Well that message was a fail from my phone. If I go to the court house, can I find the papers for the mineral rights? If I bring all the wills, will that help?
35

Joe, Will you email me one also? My email is reginatew@yahoo.com

Thanks,

Regina



Mineral Joe said:

All you need to do is record an affidavit of death and heirship. If you need one let me know and I have several I'd email you.

36

Karen,

Often the advice given here can be difficult to understand if you are not the business. I am in it, but often I read things that are as clear as mud.

I really don't know what you have. If your grandmother died in a different place and had a valid, probated will, you should obtain a certified copy from that place, and file it of record where the land is located. If your mother is the sole beneficiary under the will of your grandmother, then that should be enough to bring record title into your mother. You could still have your mother file an Affidavit of Heirship, or an Affidavit of Ownership. It might be superfluous, or more than is necessary, but it wouldn't hurt. I don't know what you actually have, but it does sound like you have some wills.

Typically, a certified copy of a probate works well enough, if the deceased did not die in the county where the land is located.

Dave Quincy said:

Possibly. A mineral title search can be easy. It can be complex. Quite often the deputy clerks will not want to help you. Some might. If you ask a landman there to point you in the right direction, they might help you. They may not have time to do it for you, but maybe a deputy clerk or a landman can tell you what indexes would be the best place to start.

Karen Lynch said:

Well that message was a fail from my phone. If I go to the court house, can I find the papers for the mineral rights? If I bring all the wills, will that help?
37

Thanks! My mom is sole heir and has a certified copy of the will.

38

There you go. I refuse to say, why didn't you say that to begin with?

It wouldn't have been as much fun.

39

Karen, like you I am so new to this and not sure what to do. When my husbands mother died she left mineral rights for 113 acres in Harrison Cty., WV. There isn't anything going on from what I have been told by XTO Oil company who my husband signed a lease. I have a feeling we were taken, because there won't be anything paid on the lease rights for another 5 yrs., anyway my husband has since passed away last year, going thru paper stuff, I came across another mineral rights in Meigs, Ohio, bought for by my mother in laws grandfather. Would or should I have the same affidavit for both properties. I would like to know that this property will go to my daughters and their children. I would appreciate help from anyone. Thanks. Peggy Kaesberg

40

Yes, you should view it in a way that you are trying to build or make more clear, a chain of title if that wouldn't already be clear to a title researcher. File heirship affidavits, certified copies of probates, anything that you have that might clear up the title. They need to be filed in the county where the land is located that you have mineral rights under.

Once you are able to build the chain into yourself, the rest is easier, try to include the legal descriptions of the mineral rights in the inventory of your will, and make your daughters and grandchildren the beneficiaries of your will in the proportions that you want.

Any affidavits that you file, try to make as detailed as possible, birth dates, marriage dates, dates of deaths, county and state of deaths, whether they died with or without a will, your contact information, or address and phone number, children, born to and adopted, etc... Put that the affidavit is correct "to the best of your knowledge", and sign it before a Notary Public.

Be sure to include legal descriptions of the lands in the affidavits if you have them.

You might also consider consulting a lawyer to help you achieve your ultimate estate planning goals.

Remember, you get what you pay for. To log in on this site, and give advice, no one is required to log in with a State Bar no. In general, no one will try to lead you down the wrong path intentionally. Make an informed decision on which way to go, or which advice to follow. However, know that the advice here is not legal advice, mainly advice based on the personal experience of the forum member who feels up to giving the reply.